HOW DID CARLOS CASTANEDA MEET DON JUAN?

There are several versions of how Carlos Castaneda first met the Nagual Don Juan Matus, all of them told by Castaneda himself, and I will detail them below.

1. IN HIS BOOK "THE TEACHINGS OF DON JUAN" (1968)

This was the first time Castaneda recounted his first encounter with his future teacher, and regarding this he wrote the following:

« I was waiting in a border town for a Greyhound bus talking with a friend who had been my guide and helper . ... Suddenly he leaned toward me and whispered that the man, a white-haired old Indian, who was sitting in front of the window was very learned about plants, especially peyote. I asked my friend to introduce me to this man.

My friend greeted him, then went over and shook his hand. After they had talked for a while, my friend signaled me to join them, but immediately left me alone with the old man, not even bothering to introduce us. He was not in the least embarrassed. I told him my name and he said that he was called Juan and that he was at my service. He used the Spanish polite form of address. We shook hands at my initiative and then remained silent for some time. It was not a strained silence, but a quietness, natural and relaxed on both sides. Though his dark face and neck were wrinkled, showing his age, it struck me that his body was agile and muscular.

I then told him that I was interested in obtaining information about medicinal plants. Although in truth I was almost totally ignorant about peyote, I found myself pretending that I knew a great deal, and even suggesting that it might be to his advantage to talk with me. As I rattled on, he nodded slowly and looked at me, but said nothing. I avoided his eyes and we finished by standing, the two of us, in dead silence. Finally, after what seemed a very long time, don Juan got up and looked out of the window.

His bus had come. He said good-bye and left the station.

I was annoyed at having talked nonsense to him, and at being seen through by those remarkable eyes. When my friend returned he tried to console me for my failure to learn anything from don Juan. He explained that the old man was often silent or noncommittal, but the disturbing effect of this first encounter was not so easily dispelled. ... The friend who had introduced me to don Juan explained later that the old man was not a native of Arizona, where we met, but was a Yaqui Indian from Sonora, Mexico. »

2. IN THE INTERVIEW THAT HELLISOE CONDUCTED WITH CASTANEDA IN 1968

Shortly after his first book was published, Castaneda was interviewed by Jane Hellisoe of the University of California, Los Angeles Press,  and when she asked him,  "How did you meet Don Juan?"

Castaneda replied:

« The way I, uh, got to know him, was very uh, very fortuitous type of affair. I was not interested in finding what he knew, because I didn't know what he knew. I was interested in collecting plants. And I met him in Arizona.

There was an old man who lived somewhere around them hills that knew a great deal about plants. And that was my interest, to collect information on plants. And uh, I uh, we went one day this friend and myself we went to look for him. And we were misguided by the Yuma Indians and we went up in the hills and never found the old man.

It was later on when I was at the end of this first trip that I make to Arizona, at the end of the summer and I was ready to go back to Los Angeles, that I was waiting in the bus stop and the old man walked in. And that's how I met him. Uh, I talked to him for about a year. I used to visit him, periodically I visit him, because I like him; he's very friendly and very consistent. It's nice to be around him. »

Observation

In this second story, Castaneda says that he and his friend went to look for Don Juan, whereas in the first story, Castaneda said that his friend mentioned the existence of Don Juan only at the very end when Castaneda was about to take his bus back to Los Angeles.

3. IN THE INTERVIEW THAT ROSAK CONDUCTED WITH CASTANEDA IN 1969

Castaneda was interviewed on January 30, 1969, by the American novelist Theodore Rosak, and when Rosak asked him, " How did you come to know this very unique person, Don Juan?"

Castaneda replied:

« I met don Juan in a rather fortuitous manner. I was doing, at the time in 1960, I was doing, I was collecting ethnographic data on the use of medicinal plants among the Arizona Indians. And a friend of mine who was my guide on that enterprise knew about don Juan. He knew that don Juan was a very learned man in the use of plants and he intended to introduce me to him, but he never got around to do that.

One day when I was about to return to Los Angeles, we happened to see him at a bus station, and my friend went over to talk to him. Then he introduced me to the man and I began to tell him that my interest was plants, and that, especially about peyote, because somebody had told me that this old man was very learned in the use of peyote. And we talked for about 15 minutes while he was waiting for his bus, or rather I did all the talking and he didn't say anything at all. He kept on staring at me from time to time and that made me very uncomfortable because I didn't know anything about peyote, and he seemed to have seen through me.

After about 15 minutes he got up and said that perhaps I could come to his house sometime where we could talk with more ease, and he just left. And I thought that the attempt to meet him was a failure because I didn't get anything out of him. And my friend thought that it was very common to get a reaction like that from the old man because he was very eccentric. But I returned again perhaps a month later and I began to search for him. I didn't know where he lived, but I found out later where his house was and I came to see him. He, at first, you know, I approached him as a friend.

I liked, for some reason, I liked the way he looked at me at the bus depot. There was something very peculiar about the way he stares at people. And he doesn't stare, usually he doesn't look at anybody straight in the eye, but sometimes he does that and it's very remarkable. And it was more that stare which made me go to see him than my interest in anthropological work. So I came various times and we developed a sort of friendship. He has a great sense of humor and that eased things up. »

Observation

In this third story, Castaneda picks up the story from the second story: that he and his friend previously searched for Don Juan without finding him, but he adds that someone informed him that Don Juan knew a lot about peyote, whereas in the first story Castaneda said that it was his friend who informed him of that.

4. IN HIS BOOK "A SEPARATE REALITY" (1971)

In this book Castaneda wrote:

« I was sitting with Bill, a friend of mine, in a bus depot in a border town in Arizona. We were very quiet. In the late afternoon the summer heat seemed unbearable. Suddenly he leaned over and tapped me on the shoulder.

"There's the man I told you about," he said in a low voice.

He nodded casually toward the entrance. An old man had just walked in. [Before, don Juan was "sitting in front of the window." This time, he "had just walked in."]

"What did you tell me about him?" I asked.

"He's the Indian that knows about peyote. Remember?"

I remembered that Bill and I had once driven all day looking for the house of an "eccentric" Mexican Indian who lived in the area. We did not find the man's house and I had the feeling that the Indians whom we had asked for directions had deliberately misled us. Bill had told me that the man was a "yerbero," a person who gathers and sells medicinal herbs, and that he knew a great deal about the hallucinogenic cactus, peyote. He had also said that it would be worth my while to meet him. Bill was my guide in the Southwest while I was collecting information and specimens of medicinal plants used by the Indians of the area.

Bill got up and went to greet the man. The Indian was of medium height. His hair was white and short, and grew a bit over his ears, accentuating the roundness of his head. He was very dark; the deep wrinkles on his face gave him the appearance of age, yet his body seemed to be strong and fit. I watched him for a moment. He moved around with a nimbleness that I would have thought impossible for an old man.

Bill signaled me to join them.

"He's a nice guy," Bill said to me. "But I can't understand him. His Spanish is weird, full of rural colloquialisms, I suppose."

The old man looked at Bill and smiled. And Bill, who speaks only a few words of Spanish, made up an absurd phrase in that language. He looked at me as if asking whether he was making sense, but I did not know what he had had in mind; he then smiled shyly and walked away. [Before Bill "immediately left Castaneda alone" with don Juan.] The old man looked at me and began laughing. I explained to him that my friend sometimes forgot that he did not speak Spanish.

"I think he also forgot to introduce us," I said, and I told him my name.

"And I am Juan Matus, at your service," he said.

We shook hands and remained quiet for some time. I broke the silence and told him about my enterprise. I told him that I was looking for any kind of information on plants, especially peyote. I talked compulsively for a long time, and although I was almost totally ignorant on the subject, I said I knew a great deal about peyote. I thought that if I boasted about my knowledge he would become interested in talking to me. But he did not say anything. He listened patiently. Then he nodded slowly and peered at me. His eyes seemed to shine with a light of their own. I avoided his gaze. I felt embarrassed. I had the certainty that at that moment he knew I was talking nonsense.

"Come to my house some time," he finally said, taking his eyes away from me. "Perhaps we could talk there with more ease." [Before, don Juan did not invite Castaneda to his house.]

I did not know what to say. I felt uneasy. After a while Bill came back into the room. [Before, it was not said that Bill left the room.] He recognized my discomfort and did not say a word. We sat in tight silence for some time. Then then old man got up. His bus had come. He said goodbye.

"It didn't go too well, did it?" Bill asked.

"No."

"Did you ask him about plants?"

"I did. But I think I goofed."

"I told you, he's very eccentric. The Indians around here know him, yet they never mention him. And that's something."

"He said I could come to his house, though."

"He was bullshitting you. Sure, you can go to his house, but what does it mean? He'll never tell you anything. If you ever ask him anything he'll clam up as if you were an idiot talking nonsense."

Bill said convincingly that he had encountered people like him before, people who gave the impression of knowing a great deal. In his judgment, he said, such people were not worth the trouble, because sooner or later one could obtain the same information from someone else who did not play hard to get. He said that he had neither patience nor time for old fogies, and that it was possible that the old man was only presenting himself as being knowledgeable about herbs, when in reality he knew as little as the next man.

Bill went on talking but I was not listening. [Here, there is a greatly extended conversation with Bill.] My mind kept on wondering about the old Indian. He knew I had been bluffing. I remembered his eyes. They had actually shone.

Observation

It is clear that to write this version, Castaneda reviewed what he had said before in his first book and in the interviews he gave, since it brings together those two accounts, but even so Castaneda changed details:

1) In the first story when his friend saw Don Juan, Don Juan was sitting in front of the window, whereas in this story Don Juan had just entered.

2) In the first story, his friend left immediately after introducing him to Don Juan, whereas in this story he chatted with them for a while.

3) In the previous stories Don Juan had not invited Castaneda to his house, whereas in this story he did.

5. IN HIS BOOK "JOURNEY TO IXTLÁN" (1972)

In this book Castaneda wrote:

« "I understand you know a great deal about plants, sir," I said to the old Indian in front of me.

A friend of mine had just put us in contact and left the room and we had introduced ourselves to each other. The old man had told me that his name was Juan Matus.

"Did your friend tell you that?" he asked casually.

"Yes, he did."

"I pick plants, or rather, they let me pick them," he said softly.

We were in the waiting room of a bus depot in Arizona. I asked him in very formal Spanish if he would allow me to question him. I said, "Would the gentleman [caballero] permit me to ask some questions?"

"He looked at me inquisitively.

"I'm a horseman without a horse," he said with a big smile and then he added, "I've told you that my name is Juan Matus."

I liked his smile. I thought that, obviously he was a man that could appreciate directness and I decided to boldly tackle him with a request. I told him I was interested in collecting and studying medicinal plants. I said that my special interest was the uses of the hallucinogenic cactus, peyote, which I had studied at length at the university in Los Angeles.

I thought that my presentation was very serious. I was very contained and sounded perfectly credible to myself.

The old man shook his head slowly, and I, encouraged by his silence, added that it would no doubt be profitable for us to get together and talk about peyote.

It was at that moment that he lifted his head and looked me squarely in the eyes. It was a formidable look. Yet it was not menacing or awesome in any way. It was a look that went through me. I became tongue-tied at once and could not continue with the harangues about myself. That was the end of our meeting. Yet he left on a note of hope. He said that perhaps I could visit him at his house someday. »

Observation

There is nothing new here, just that the conversation between Castaneda and Don Juan has developed a little further.

6. IN THE INTERVIEW THAT KEEN CONDUCTED WITH CASTANEDA IN 1972 

The American author, academic, and philosopher Sam Keen interviewed Carlos Castaneda in 1972, and when he asked him: "How and where did you meet Don Juan and become his apprentice?"

Castaneda replied:

« I was finishing my undergraduate study at UCLA and was planning to go to graduate school in anthropology. I was interested in becoming a professor and thought I might begin in the proper way by publishing a short paper on medicinal plants. I couldn't have cared less about finding a weirdo like don Juan.

I was in a bus depot in Arizona with a high-school friend of mine. He pointed out an old Indian man to me and said he knew about peyote and medicinal plants. I put on my best airs and introduced myself to don Juan and said:

"I understand you know a great deal about peyote. I am one of the experts on peyote (I had read Weston La Barre's The Peyote Cult) and it might be worth your while to have lunch and talk with me."

Well, he just looked at me and my bravado melted. I was absolutely tongue-tied and numb. I was usually very aggressive and verbal so it was a momentous affair to be silenced by a look. After that I began to visit him and about a year later he told me he had decided to pass on to me the knowledge of sorcery he had learned from his teacher. »

Observation

There is nothing new in this account either, but here Castaneda claims he was immediately speechless and silenced by Don Juan's gaze, whereas in previous accounts Castaneda claimed to have been conversing with Don Juan for about fifteen minutes. Furthermore, for the first time, Bill is referred to as "a friend from high school."

7. IN THE INTERVIEW THAT THOMPSON CONDUCTED WITH CASTANEDA IN 1994

This interview was published in 'New Age Journal' magazine, and regarding their first encounter with Don Juan, Keith Thomson and Castaneda had the following conversation:

« KT: How exactly did your paths cross?

CC: I was waiting for the bus at the Greyhound station in Nogales, Arizona, talking with an anthropologist who had been my guide and helper in my survey. My colleague leaned over and pointed to a white-haired old Indian across the room -- "Psst, over there, don't let him see you looking" -- and said he was an expert about peyote and medicinal plants. That was all I needed to hear. I put on my best airs and sauntered over to this man, who was known as don Juan, and told him I myself was an authority about peyote. I said that it might be worth his while to have lunch and talk with me -- or something unbearably arrogant to that effect.

KT: The old power-lunch ploy. But you weren't really much of an authority, were you?

CC: I knew next to nothing about peyote! But I continued rattling on -- boasting about my knowledge, intending to impress him. I remember that he just looked at me and nodded occasionally, without saying a word. My pretensions melted in the heat of that day. [Uh-huh.] I was stunned at being silenced. There I stood in the abyss, [so that was the abyss!] until don Juan saw that his bus had come. He said good-bye, with the slightest wave of his hand. I felt like an arrogant imbecile, and that was the end.

KT: Also the beginning.

CC: Yes, that's when everything started. I learned that don Juan was known as a brujo, which means, in English, medicine man, curer, sorcerer. It became my task to discover where he lived. You know, I was very good at doing that, and I did. I found out, and I came to see him one day. We took a liking to each other and soon became good friends.

KT: You felt like a moron in this man's presence, but you were eager to seek him out?

CC: The way don Juan had looked at me there in the bus station was exceptional -- an unprecedented event in my life. There was something remarkable about his eyes, which seemed to shine with a light all their own. ... It was on that archaic level that I was tackled by don Juan's gaze, despite my annoyance and irritation that he had seen through my pretense to expertise in the bus station. »

Observation

In previous accounts Castaneda stated that his friend first went to see Don Juan to introduce him, and here Castaneda says that it was he himself who introduced himself directly to Don Juan.

8. IN HIS BOOK "FROM THE ACTIVE SIDE OF INFINITY" (1998)

In this book Castaneda wrote:

« Abruptly, he leaned over and pointed with a slight movement of his chin to the other side of the room. "I think that old man sitting on the bench by the corner over there is the man I told you about," he whispered in my ear.

"I am not quite sure because I've had him in front of me, face-to-face, only once." [Note: this time don Juan is "on a bench by the corner."]

"What man is that? What did you tell me about him?" I asked.

"When we were talking about shamans and shamans' transformations, I told you that I had once met a cloud shaman."

"Yes, yes, I remember that," I said. "Is that man the cloud shaman?"

"No," he said emphatically. "But I think he is a companion or a teacher of the cloud shaman. I saw both of them together in the distance various times, many years ago." [Here, in their conversation the man who, before, was "very learned about plants" has now turned into "teacher of the cloud shaman."]

I did remember Bill mentioning, in a very casual manner, but not in relation to the cloud shaman, that he knew about the existence of a mysterious old man who was a retired shaman, an old Indian misanthrope from Yuma who had once been a terrifying sorcerer. [Here, instead of a yerbero, knowledgeable about peyote, Castaneda has Bill mentioning that don Juan was a "terrifying sorcerer." This is interesting because in The Teachings Castaneda says at first he saw don Juan only as "a rather peculiar man who knew a great deal about peyote," and only later discovers that "the people with whom he lived believed that...he was a brujo." In A Separate Reality, Castaneda says it took don Juan a full year to reveal that he was a brujo.] The relationship of the old man to the cloud shaman was never voiced by my friend, but obviously it was foremost in Bill's mind, to the point where he believed that he had told me about him.

A strange anxiety suddenly possessed me and made me jump out of my seat. As if I had no volition of my own, I approached the old man and immediately began a long tirade on how much I knew about medicinal plants and shamanism among the American Indians of the Plains and their Siberian ancestors. As a secondary theme, I mentioned to the old man that I knew that he was a shaman.

I concluded by assuring him that it would be thoroughly beneficial for him to talk to me at length. [Here there is no preliminary conversation by Bill whatsoever. Castaneda jumps up and accosts don Juan all by himself!]

"If nothing else," I said petulantly, "we could swap stories. You tell me yours and I'll tell you mine."

The old man kept his eyes lowered until the last moment. Then he peered at me. "I am Juan Matus," he said, looking me squarely in the eyes." [Before there were introductions, and conversations about the horseman without a horse, etc. Before the big bluff by Castaneda and the famous look, now here don Juan is introducing himself at the same time as "the look" is taking place.]

My tirade shouldn't have ended by any means, but for no reason that I could discern I felt that there was nothing more I could have said. I wanted to tell him my name. He raised his hand to the height of my lips as if to prevent me from saying it. [In the first two book accounts, Castaneda explicitly says: "I told him my name," and in Ixtlan they also introduced themselves.]

At that instant a bus pulled up to the bus stop. The old man muttered that it was the bus he had to take, then he earnestly asked me to look him up so we could talk with more ease and swap stories. There was an ironic smirk on the corner of his mouth when he said that. With an incredible agility for a man his age--I figured he must have been in his eighties--he covered, in a few leaps, the fifty yards between the bench where he was sitting and the door of the bus. As if the bus had stopped just to pick him up, it moved away as soon as he had jumped in and the door had closed. [In the earlier accounts, there is another long interval before don Juan gets up and takes his bus, but here, while they are still conversing, the bus pulls up]

After the old man left, I went back to the bench where Bill was sitting. [Oh? Before, it was Bill who "came back into the room."]

"What did he say, what did he say?" he asked excitedly. [Oh? Before, Castaneda and Bill sat in silence for a while, before Bill said "it didn't go too well, did it?"]

"He told me to look him up and come to his house to visit," I said. "He even said that we could talk there."

"But what did you say to him to get him to invite you to his house?" he demanded.

I told Bill that I had used my best sales pitch, and that I had promised the old man to reveal to him everything I knew, from the point of view of my reading, about medicinal plants.

Bill obviously didn't believe me. He accused me of holding out on him. "I know the people around this area," he said belligerently, " and that old man is a very strange fart. He doesn't talk to anybody, Indians included. Why would he talk to you, a perfect stranger? You're not even cute .... »

(Note: The conversation with Bill continues. It should be noted that the extended conversation with Bill immediately after the meeting is completely different from the post-meeting conversation recounted in the book 'A Separate Reality'. And to top it all off, not a single sentence is the same.)

Observation

It is noticeable that in this story Castaneda no longer paid attention to what he had said previously because he says many very different things (it even gives the impression that it was another person who wrote this story):

1) This time Don Juan is sitting on a bench by the corner, whereas in the first story Don Juan was sitting in front of the window, and in the fourth story Don Juan had just entered.

2) Whereas in the previous stories Don Juan is a great connoisseur of plants, in this story Don Juan has become the master of the "cloud shaman".

3) While in previous accounts Don Juan is a herbalist, knowledgeable about peyote, here Castaneda has Bill mention that Don Juan was a "fearsome sorcerer." But this contradicts his first book, 'The Teachings of Don Juan,' where Castaneda says that at first he saw Don Juan only as "a rather peculiar man who knew a lot about peyote," and only later discovered that "the people he lived with believed he was a sorcerer." And in his book 'A Separate Reality,' Castaneda says that it took Don Juan a whole year to reveal to him that he was a sorcerer.

4) Here Bill does not approach Don Juan to introduce him to Castaneda, but Castaneda jumps up and approaches Don Juan on his own.

5) There's no conversation with Bill here. Not a single silly exchange in Bill's terrible Spanish or anything like that. In the other books, it was even said that Don Juan considered it an omen that Castaneda was brought to him by an idiot who babbled nonsense, but here Bill doesn't even come close to babbling nonsense to Don Juan.

6) In the previous stories, Castaneda told Don Juan his name, but he did not do so here.

7) In the previous stories, a long interval elapses before Don Juan gets up and takes the bus; but here, while they are still conversing, Don Juan quickly boards the bus.

8) In the previous stories, after Don Juan left, Bill returned to Castaneda; whereas here it is Castaneda who approaches Bill.

9) In the previous accounts, Bill notices that Castaneda is sad and says to him, "The meeting didn't go well, did it?", whereas here Castaneda is all excited about the "success" that the meeting was.

10) After the conversation, Castaneda says he went directly to Yuma instead of Los Angeles, and that there he learned that Don Juan was a Yaqui from Sonora, a fearsome sorcerer, thanks to "certain people" Bill introduced him to at the beginning of his journey. Whereas in the first account, Castaneda had specifically stated that it was Bill who told him this.

(Note: the texts above were compiled by sustainedaction.org)

IN SUMMARY

Castaneda was studying anthropology at UCLA. The professor assigned them the task of interviewing a Native American. Castaneda went to Nogales, Arizona, to find one to interview. It seems he didn't find anyone interesting until, while waiting for his bus home, his friend pointed out Don Juan to him.

MY OPINION

Carlos Castaneda was a very dishonest man, so I'm very suspicious that this story is true. And although it's normal not to remember all the details and therefore often change them, in Castaneda's case, I believe his numerous modifications are due more to the fact that this writer didn't care about being rigorous in his stories and frequently changed the stories he invented.