Indeed,
there are a number of people who call themselves my students or
students of Don Juan himself, whom I have never met and whom I can
assure you Don Juan never met.
Don
Juan Matus was exclusively interested in perpetuating his lineage of
shamans. He had four disciples who remain to this day [Castaneda, Carol,
Taisha, and Florinda].
He
had others who left with him. Don Juan wasn't interested in teaching
his knowledge; he did so with his disciples so they could continue his
lineage. And since his disciples [Castaneda, Carol, Taisha, and
Florinda] cannot continue Don Juan's lineage, they have been forced to
spread his ideas.
The
concept of a teacher imparting knowledge is part of our cognitive
system, but it wasn't part of the cognitive system of the shamans of
ancient Mexico. For them, teaching was absurd. Transmitting their
knowledge to those who would perpetuate the lineage was a different
matter altogether.
The
fact that there are a number of individuals determined to use my name
or that of Don Juan is simply an easy maneuver to benefit without much
work.
Let
us consider the meaning of the word "spirituality" as a state of
consciousness in which human beings are fully capable of controlling the
potential of the species, an achievement obtained by transcending the
mere condition of animals through arduous psychic, moral, and
intellectual conditioning. Do you agree with this statement? How does
the world of Don Juan fit into this context?
For
Don Juan Matus, as a pragmatic and level-headed shaman, "spirituality"
was an empty idea, an unfounded assertion that seems very beautiful to
us because it is embedded in literary concepts and poetic expressions,
but it doesn't go beyond that.
Shamans
like Don Juan are essentially practical. For them, there is only a
predatory universe where intelligence or self-awareness is the product
of life-or-death challenges. He considered himself a navigator of the
Infinite and said that to navigate the unknown, as a shaman does, one
needs boundless pragmatism, immeasurable sanity, and nerves of steel.
In
view of all this, Don Juan believed that "spirituality" is simply a
description of something impossible to achieve under the patterns of the
everyday world and not a living way of acting.
(Cid's
note: This shows me Don Juan's limitations, since the great masters
indicate that true spirituality is a vast field, but one needs to have
developed one's spiritual faculties to access it, while Don Juan was
only a nagual who could only explore the astral plane.)
You
have indicated that your literary activity is due to instructions from
Don Juan, as is the case with Taisha Abelar and Florinda Donner-Grau.
What are the objectives of this?
The
purpose of writing the books was given by Don Juan. He asserted that if
one is not a writer one can still write, but writing transforms from a
literary act into a shamanistic one.
The
one who decides the theme and development of a book is not the writer's
mind, but a force that shamans consider the foundation of the universe
and call "the Intent." And it is the Intent that determines a shaman's
output, whether literary or otherwise.
(Cid's
note: Castaneda, Florinda, and Taisha's books are full of falsehoods;
it was not the Intent that drove them to write them, but the desire for
profit.)
According
to Don Juan, a practitioner of shamanism has the duty, the obligation,
to saturate themselves with all available information. The work of a
shaman is to become fully informed about everything possible related to
their topic of interest.
The
shamanic act consists of abandoning all interest in directing the
course that such information takes. The one who arranges the ideas that
arise from such a source of information is not the shaman—Don Juan
said—it is the Intent. The shaman is simply an impeccable conduit. For
Don Juan, writing was a shamanic challenge, not a literary task.
Do you have any immediate plans in that direction, other books, for example?
There
are several books currently in production. Cleargreen Corporation, as a
publisher, is about to release a book on Tensegrity and another on
Inner Silence. Taisha Abelar, Florinda Donner-Grau, and Carol Tiggs also
have projects nearing completion.
Compare and check
If
I may make the following statement, your work presents concepts closely
related to Eastern philosophical doctrines, but it contradicts what is
known about indigenous Mexican culture. Where do the similarities and
differences lie between the two?
I
haven't the slightest idea. I'm not an expert in either. My work is a
phenomenological report of a cognitive world into which Don Juan Matus
introduced me.
From
the perspective of phenomenology as a philosophical method, it is not
possible to arrive at assertions related to the phenomenon under
scrutiny. Don Juan's world is so vast, mysterious, and contradictory
that it does not lend itself to a linear exposition; at most, it can be
described, and even then, only with a supreme effort.
Assuming
that Don Juan's teachings have become part of occult literature, what
is your opinion of other teachings from this group, such as Masonic and
Rosicrucian philosophies, Hermeticism, and disciplines like Kabbalah,
Tarot, and astrology, in comparison to nagualism? Have you ever had or
do you currently have contact with any of these traditions or their
practitioners?
Again,
I haven't the slightest idea what the premises, viewpoints, or topics
of such disciplines are. Don Juan presented us with the problem of
navigating the unknown, and this takes all the effort we can muster.
Do
some of the concepts in your work, such as the assemblage point, the
energy emanations that compose the universe, the world of inorganic
beings, intent, stalking, and dreaming, have a counterpart in Western
knowledge? For example, some see man as a luminous egg, an expression of
the aura...
No, nothing that Don Juan taught us seems to have a counterpart in Western knowledge, as far as I know.
(Cid's note: there are several similarities with Western and Eastern esoteric knowledge.)
Once,
when Don Juan was still around, I spent an entire year searching for
gurus, teachers, sages who could give me some insight into what I was
doing. I wanted to know if there was anything in the world at that time
that was similar to what Don Juan said and did.
My
resources were very limited and only led me to meet established
teachers, who had thousands of followers, and unfortunately, I couldn't
find any similarity.
Focusing now specifically on his work, his readers encounter different Carlos Castanedas.
First,
a somewhat inept Western academic permanently bewildered by the power
of Indian elders like Don Juan and Don Genaro (mainly in The Teachings
of Don Juan, A Separate Reality, Journey to Ixtlan, Tales of Power and
The Second Ring of Power).
Then
with a seasoned shaman apprentice (in The Eagle's Gift, The Inner Fire,
Silent Knowledge and especially in The Art of Dreaming).
If you agree with this assessment, when and how did one disappear to make way for the other?
I
consider myself neither a shaman, nor a teacher, nor an accomplished
student of shamanism, nor do I consider myself an anthropologist or
social scientist of the Western world. My presentations have all been
descriptions of a phenomenon impossible to discern under the conditions
of linear Western knowledge. I was never able to give Don Juan a
cause-and-effect explanation for what he taught me, nor the possibility
of predicting what he was going to say or what was going to happen.
Under
these conditions, the transition from one state to another is
subjective and not something elaborate or the product of premeditation
or wisdom.
In
your work, one can find episodes that are frankly unbelievable from a
Western perspective. How could someone uninitiated verify the truth of
these "separate realities" given your assertion that they are real?
This
can be verified in a very simple way: by lending one's whole body
instead of just the intellect. One cannot enter Don Juan's world
intellectually, like a dilettante seeking fleeting, quick knowledge, nor
can anything be proven within it. The only thing one can do is reach a
heightened state of consciousness that allows us to perceive the world
around us in a broader way.
In
other words, the goal of Don Juan's shamanism was to break free from
the parameters of historical and everyday perception and enter into the
realm of the unknown. Hence, he called himself a navigator of the
infinite. He maintained that beyond the parameters of daily perception
lies infinity.
Achieving
that was the directive of his life, and since he was an extraordinary
shaman, he instilled it in the four of us [Castaneda, Carol, Taisha, and
Florinda] just as he wished. He forced us to transcend the intellect
and embody the concept of breaking the parameters of historical
perception.
Energy perception
You
maintain that the basic characteristic of human beings is their
condition as "energy perceivers." You point to the assemblage point
movement as imperative for directly perceiving energy. What use can this
be to a 21st-century person? How does achieving this goal contribute to
spiritual advancement, as previously defined?
Shamans
like Don Juan maintain that all human beings possess the ability to
perceive energy directly as it flows in the universe. They consider the
assemblage point, as they call it, to be a point that exists within the
total energy field of humankind.
In
other words, when a shaman perceives a man as energy flowing in the
universe, he "sees" a luminous ball. Within that luminous ball, the
shaman can "see" a point of great brightness located at the level of the
shoulder blades and about a meter behind them.
Shamans
maintain that this is where perception takes place, that the energy
flowing in the universe is transformed there into sensory data, and that
this sensory data is then interpreted to result in the world of
everyday life.
Shamans maintain that we are taught to interpret, therefore we are taught to perceive.
The
pragmatic value of perceiving energy directly as it flows in the
universe is the same for 21st-century man as it was for man in the 1st
century. It allows him to expand the limits of his perception and
utilize that expansion within his environment. Don Juan said it would be
extraordinary to "see" directly the wonder of the order and chaos of
the universe.
Besides
her three companions, those attending her seminars have met another
group of people, such as the Chacmols, the Energy Trackers, the
Elements, the Blue Explorer... Who are they? Is this a new group of
seers led by her? If so, how could someone join this group of
apprentices?
Each
of those people you're asking about are specific individuals whom Don
Juan Matus, as the head of his lineage, instructed us to await. He
predicted the arrival of each of them as an integral part of a vision.
(Cid's note: that's false and in reality Castaneda invented those roles for the closest members of his group.)
Since
the lineage could not continue due to the unique energetic
configurations of its four students [Castaneda, Carol, Taisha, and
Florinda], their mission shifted from perpetuating their lineage to
closing it, if possible, with a flourish.
We
are not in a position to change that directive. We cannot seek out or
accept apprentices or current members of Don Juan's new vision. The only
thing we can do is abide by the decisions of the Intent.
The
fact that the magical passes, so carefully guarded by so many
generations, are being taught shows that it is possible to become part
of this new vision indirectly, through the practice of Tensegrity and
the observation of the premises of the warrior's path.
You
and your colleagues have focused the public dissemination of your
teachings in parts of the United States, primarily California, and in
Mexico. Will other countries in the Americas be able to access them
directly from you? What are the chances that you will accept the
invitations you have received from Latin America, specifically from
Chile, to offer seminars in these regions?
We
are currently in a crucial position to expand the scope of our seminars
to include other Latin American countries. Cleargreen Corporation's
plans for 1997 include extensive tours throughout Latin America.
In ' Readers of Infinity
' you used the term "navigation" to define what sorcerers do. Are you
ready to hoist sails and weigh anchor to begin the ultimate journey?
Will the lineage of Toltec warriors, custodians of this knowledge, end
with you?
Yes, indeed, Don Juan's lineage will wipe us out.
Does the warrior's path include the spiritual work of the couple, as found in other approaches?
The
warrior's path encompasses everything and everyone. There can be an
entire family of flawless warriors. The difficulty lies in the terrible
fact that individual relationships are based on emotional investments,
which crumble the moment the practitioner actually puts what they learn
into practice. Typically, in the everyday world, these emotional
investments are never reviewed, and we live our entire lives waiting for
them to be reciprocated.
Don
Juan said that my way of living and feeling was described in a very
simple way: "I only give what I am given," and that I was a hardened
investor.
We're all going to die
If
someone wanted to undertake spiritual work based on the knowledge
disseminated in his books, what prospects for progress could they
expect? What recommendations would you offer to those who wish to put
Don Juan's teachings into practice on their own?
There
is no way to limit what one can achieve individually if the attempt is
impeccable. Don Juan's teachings are not spiritual, I repeat, since this
point has been raised repeatedly. The idea of spirituality does not
fit with the warrior's iron discipline. What matters most to a shaman
like Don Juan is the idea of pragmatism.
When
I met Don Juan, I considered myself a practical man, a social scientist
full of objectivity and pragmatism. He shattered my illusions and made
me see that, as a true Western man, I was neither pragmatic nor
spiritual. I came to understand that I simply repeated the word
"spirituality" to contrast it with the mercenary nature of everyday
life's commercialism; I called that very striving spirituality.
When
Don Juan demanded that I come to a conclusion, to a definition of what I
considered spiritual, I realized that he was right. I didn't know what
he was talking about.
It
sounds a bit presumptuous to say what I'm saying, but there's no other
way to put it. What a shaman like Don Juan wants is the expansion of the
consciousness of being, that is, the ability to perceive with all the
human capacity for perception, which implies a monumental effort and a
boundless purpose—things that cannot be provided by spirituality in the
Western world.
Is
there anything you would like to explain to us South Americans? Would
you like to present any other points besides those already made?
I
have nothing more to add. All human beings are on the same level. At
the beginning of my apprenticeship with Don Juan Matus, he tried to make
me see the commonality of man's situation. I, as a South American, was
very intellectually involved with the idea of social reform. One day I
posed to him the question that I believed was crucial. I said to him:
"How
is it possible, Don Juan, that you remain unmoved by the appalling
situation of your fellow countrymen, the Yaqui Indians of Sonora?"
I
knew that a percentage of the Yaqui population suffered from
tuberculosis and that there was no remedy due to their economic
condition.
"Yes,"
Don Juan told me, "it's a very sad thing, but imagine how sad your
situation is too, and if you think you're in better conditions than the
Yaqui Indians, you're mistaken. The human condition in general is one of
appalling chaos. No one is better off than anyone else; we are all
beings who are going to die, and unless we fully grasp this situation,
there is no remedy for us."
This
is another aspect of the shamans' pragmatism: the realization that we
are beings who will die. And they say that in doing so, everything
acquires a transcendental measure and order.
(Cid's note: this last point is one of Don Juan's valuable lessons.)
THE TENSEGRITY OF CARLOS CASTANEDA
Today,
Carlos Castaneda and his companions' main concern is the dissemination
of a discipline of physical exercises they call "Tensegrity." Their
seminars dedicate several hours to teaching these movements, and there
are also videocassettes available for individual learning.
Vol. I: Twelve basic movements to gather energy and promote well-being.
Vol. 2: Redistributing Scattered Energy.
Vol. 3: Energetically crossing from one phylum to another.
We also asked Castaneda about this:
You
recently introduced a physical exercise discipline called Tensegrity.
Can you explain what it is? What is its purpose? And what benefits can
someone who practices it individually find in it?
According
to what Don Juan Matus taught us, the shamans who lived in ancient
Mexico discovered a series of movements, performed with the body, that
led them to a state of physical and mental development of such magnitude
that they decided to call such movements 'magical passes'.
Don
Juan told us that through their magical passes, these shamans acquired
an increased level of consciousness that led them to perform
indescribable feats of perception.
The
magical passes were taught through generations only to shamanic
practitioners, amidst tremendous secrecy and complex rituals. This is
how they were taught to Don Juan Matus, and this is how he taught them
to his four disciples [Castaneda, Carol, Taisha, and Florinda].
Our
effort has been to extend the teaching of these magical passes to
anyone who wants to learn them. We have called them Tensegrity and have
transformed them from movements entirely personal and unique to each of
Don Juan's four disciples into generic movements applicable to anyone.
The
practice of Tensegrity, whether individually or collectively, promotes
health, vigor, youth, and overall well-being. Don Juan said that the
practice of magical passes helps accumulate the energy necessary to
increase consciousness and expand the parameters of perception.
Tensegrity
is a word used in architecture, which means: "The property of frames
that employ continuous tension members and discontinuous compression
members, such that each member operates with maximum efficiency and
economy."
_ _ _
Castaneda
says that this is a highly appropriate word to designate his physical
discipline, since it mixes the terms "tension" and "integrity,"
expressions that denote the two driving forces of magical passes.
Carlos
Castaneda's Tensegrity videocassettes can be purchased directly from
Cleargreen Inc. via the Internet (http://www.web.com/castaneda) or soon
in Chile through their authorized distributors.
MY OPINION OF THIS INTERVIEW
This
must have been the last interview Carlos Castaneda gave, as he fell ill
and died a year later in April 1998. I didn't like this interview
because Carlos Castaneda repeated his usual verbosity and didn't say
anything he hadn't said before; moreover, his great disdain for
spirituality shows the limitations of his discernment.
